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sarkaNote: Edited to delete a few points, which, on reflection, probably need an entry of their own.
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jazzqueen wrote a post. And as her philosophical posts are wont to do, it got me thinking.
Are people seriously generally of the mindset that religion is okay, as long as people, you know, shut up about it? Honestly?
Personally, I'm religious. I am a deeply and fundamentally religious person and my faith makes up a huge part of who I am. I don't talk about it much, because I've never felt the need to share my beliefs with others – I've always felt that organized religion was like being marched in formation to look at a sunset: unlikely to change anything about your appreciation of things and rather detrimental to your sympathy for other people's points of view.
My faith has very little to do with the Bible. I've read great chunks of it (not all of it, but a lot) and some of it has merit and other things don't – to my worldview at least. I believe in Jesus. Well, for me it's not a belief, per se, as his existence is a historically proven fact. Do I believe he ascended up to heaven after rising from death? I'm not entirely sure, but I'm not willing to rule out the possibility.
No, my faith differs from the basic Christian worldview in several key areas. One of the cornerstones of my approach to the world is my faith in science – but I could not hold that faith unless I was willing to take a few things as given without questioning them too much. How do we know that the ground rules we have laid down to approximate the workings of the world will still be valid tomorrow? Honestly: we don't. We simply do not hold an understanding of the world yet that allows us to prove that the world will always work the way it works today. So we take things on faith; that the scientific principle can teach us real things about the world in which we live, that knowledge is an end in itself and that the more things we understand, the better we will be able to orient ourselves in the universe.
But science can't teach us everything. There is no way to fundamentally prove the difference between right and wrong, and science, while it has its own moral code, can't help us in making moral decisions.
This is where religion comes in. Be it Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Confucianism, Sikhism, Jainism, Sufism, Taoism, Gnosticism, Paganism, Atheism or philosophy, religion is simply a counterpart to science as a method to approach and understand the world. Some people give greater import to science, other people subjugate science to a value-based ideology.
There's nothing wrong with either approach. The fundamental problem is our inability to respect the choices other people make about which approach is more appropriate for them.
And it's certainly easier to subscribe to a belief system wholesale than to attempt to make up your own; I know this personally because there are a few issues where I keep running headfirst into a wall of my own beliefs and morals, and honestly, it would be a lot more simple to go with the flow – to be an atheist and maintain that science and rationality is the only way to go or to be a religious person and abhor the choices that science sometimes forces us to make. I can't blame people for that.
But every single one of us must sometimes come up against something that doesn't feel right; an area our basic codes of operation don't extend to, a place where we have to make a decision based on what we believe is right. Some things we just know.
And anything that helps us to figure out the difference between right and wrong can't be inherently bad, just the same way it can't always be inherently right. Eschewing other people's codes of morality as stupid or wrong, or okay as long as they don't talk about them in public, or to you, or make them an aspect of the public sphere... it goes against the very grain of what most people otherwise profess to believe in: choice, rationality and freedom.
So
jazzqueen wrote a post. And as her philosophical posts are wont to do, it got me thinking.Are people seriously generally of the mindset that religion is okay, as long as people, you know, shut up about it? Honestly?
Personally, I'm religious. I am a deeply and fundamentally religious person and my faith makes up a huge part of who I am. I don't talk about it much, because I've never felt the need to share my beliefs with others – I've always felt that organized religion was like being marched in formation to look at a sunset: unlikely to change anything about your appreciation of things and rather detrimental to your sympathy for other people's points of view.
My faith has very little to do with the Bible. I've read great chunks of it (not all of it, but a lot) and some of it has merit and other things don't – to my worldview at least. I believe in Jesus. Well, for me it's not a belief, per se, as his existence is a historically proven fact. Do I believe he ascended up to heaven after rising from death? I'm not entirely sure, but I'm not willing to rule out the possibility.
No, my faith differs from the basic Christian worldview in several key areas. One of the cornerstones of my approach to the world is my faith in science – but I could not hold that faith unless I was willing to take a few things as given without questioning them too much. How do we know that the ground rules we have laid down to approximate the workings of the world will still be valid tomorrow? Honestly: we don't. We simply do not hold an understanding of the world yet that allows us to prove that the world will always work the way it works today. So we take things on faith; that the scientific principle can teach us real things about the world in which we live, that knowledge is an end in itself and that the more things we understand, the better we will be able to orient ourselves in the universe.
But science can't teach us everything. There is no way to fundamentally prove the difference between right and wrong, and science, while it has its own moral code, can't help us in making moral decisions.
This is where religion comes in. Be it Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Confucianism, Sikhism, Jainism, Sufism, Taoism, Gnosticism, Paganism, Atheism or philosophy, religion is simply a counterpart to science as a method to approach and understand the world. Some people give greater import to science, other people subjugate science to a value-based ideology.
There's nothing wrong with either approach. The fundamental problem is our inability to respect the choices other people make about which approach is more appropriate for them.
And it's certainly easier to subscribe to a belief system wholesale than to attempt to make up your own; I know this personally because there are a few issues where I keep running headfirst into a wall of my own beliefs and morals, and honestly, it would be a lot more simple to go with the flow – to be an atheist and maintain that science and rationality is the only way to go or to be a religious person and abhor the choices that science sometimes forces us to make. I can't blame people for that.
But every single one of us must sometimes come up against something that doesn't feel right; an area our basic codes of operation don't extend to, a place where we have to make a decision based on what we believe is right. Some things we just know.
And anything that helps us to figure out the difference between right and wrong can't be inherently bad, just the same way it can't always be inherently right. Eschewing other people's codes of morality as stupid or wrong, or okay as long as they don't talk about them in public, or to you, or make them an aspect of the public sphere... it goes against the very grain of what most people otherwise profess to believe in: choice, rationality and freedom.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-02-12 02:35 am (UTC)I believe most of the moral rules we hold today are much more human than religious. If anything, I think humanity is getting more and more moral as we become less religious.
There's a difference between wanting to deny you your rights, smother your beliefs and push you into a corner on one hand, and simply not being interested in talking about god on the other. I have no issues with people like you, you don't keep telling me that I should believe, or cite scripture or try to push your religion on me. I have issues with the religious hegemony that assumes that everyone's religious, everyone wants to get married in a church, babtise their children, etc., etc. I have issues with fundamentally religious people trying to limit other people's lives based on religion.
I probably just shouldn't say anything. I rarely discuss religion with people outside a certain group (my family and a few choice friends). I've stated my stance a few times, but I'm not trying to influence anyone. I am perfectly willing to fight for both my rights and the rights of people in other places. People who are being oppressed by religion.
By all means, make religion public. Just don't expect the state to pay for it and keep it out of legislation.
Don't mind me. I guess we're just as opposite ends on this issue.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-02-12 05:11 am (UTC)I'm not going to say what I think, I don't want to hurt your feelings.
I think I stated this when I started blogging, way back in 2001, but I guess it needs restatement; I would much rather you tell me how you really feel than to self-edit. I promise, nobody will be thrown out of this blog for being honest, as long as they're polite, and I know you're polite.
Don't take it easy on me. I'm a big girl, and my worldviews were shaped by aggressive debates throughout two years of studying philosophy in university: I promise you, nothing you can say will shake me. I'd much rather respond to your honest opinions than you trying to tread softly around the issue in order to spare my feelings. (Some of my ex-classmates would tell you I have no feelings at all!)
And the reason for this is: Don't mind me. I guess we're just as opposite ends on this issue.
Because I don't think we are, I truly don't. Just because we approach the world in different ways does not mean we may not come to the same ultimate conclusion.